Some months before my debut novel was published, I interviewed for a job at a university creative writing department. The panel of lecturers who interviewed me asked how I would make the students ‘feel safe’, how I would ‘ensure their writing reflected the values of the university,’ and ‘help them find a place for their Creative Writing degree in the wider employment marketplace.’ Nice one, guys – nice one!
Around eighteen years earlier, I made the hotly contested cut for the third year creative writing module at Manchester University. The two hours every Wednesday between three and five became a singular positive amongst what was otherwise a soul-crushingly dry English Lit degree.
After a thirty-second handover from our tutor, the novelist Martyn Bedford, it was announced that Bill Broady would cover the first semester of the third year. Bill’s novel Swimmer had been published a couple of years before by Flamingo, a then avant-garde imprint of HarperCollins – written in second person, Swimmer is immersive, nuanced, and immaculate.
The impact that Bill had on the group and, specifically, me was transformative. It feels like an origin story. The cut from the second year to the third year had left a perfectly millennial Russell Group group made up of future civil servants, a senior academic, a lawyer, a popstar turned lawyer, and a novelist.
From the jump, Bill was never anything other than Bill Broady: Novelist. Bill was compellingly, and initially shockingly, serious. He was also generous, cuttingly incisive, and authentic. Bill was an intimidating presence in a way that was hugely motivating. Bill led the workshop critiques in a style that was tough and uncompromising, but everyone in the room got on with it, actually talked, and laughed too. Bill is a very funny man, certainly far too funny for the straight A’s midwittery that dominated the Samuel Adams Building at the time, and yet he allowed people to get on board and be funny themselves, and critical, and engaged with the work. Inspired and encouraged by Bill, the group became relentlessly direct in their workshop feedback, and it was an enriching experience to hear peers say they strongly liked your work or, equally, strongly disliked it.
In hindsight, it was the only time I felt like I was in the university experience I had imagined beforehand, my vision based on what I’d seen on television or film – as the first gen of my family to have attended university, I had no other tangible frame of reference for what to expect. To this day, I’m grateful for Bill. He’s a real one, there’s no doubting that.
Bill’s new novel, The Night-Soil Men, was published in June of this year by Salt, and is centered around the origins of the Labour Party.
You don’t need to be a leftist to enjoy this novel! – my unsolicited blurb quote for TNSM.
There’s a control and ease to the writing that feels so timeless and graceful. It’s also a very funny novel, as has been noted in several reviews. I was both surprised and not surprised when Bill revealed the editing process for the TNSM – Chris Hamilton-Emery of Salt is truly not being hyperbolic when he says that this is a ‘once in a lifetime novel.’
In the midst of the final stages of another round of edits on my novel-in-progress, I recently spoke with Bill via email.
ROR: The Night-Soil Men has been a decade in the making. Coming to the end of working on my new novel for 3-4 years and it feels like a relief, and time wise something I want to avoid happening again, if I can. I suppose it takes as long as it takes. Can you say something about this period of time – both generally for you and from a writing point of view? And can you say something about how you felt towards the novel at various points during the ten years?
Bill Broady: The curious history of “The Night-Soil Men”’ stretches back almost half a century. At school, my friends and I—convinced that we were all destined to be ‘Great Writers’—fell to discussing what books we might actually write. “Like Howard Spring’s ‘Fame Is The Spur’”, I piped up rather to my surprise, “but in the style of Louis-Ferdinand Celine.” I presumed that this might portend some ungodly fusion of solid/stolid socio-political material and coruscating expressionist modernist techniques.
In fact, when I was first published-- many years later—it was through writing very different things…but I had also come across, through one of my old friends, some fascinating legends and lore of the early years of the Labour Movement. Through a series of weird coincidences—fate and chance have always ruled my work—the narrative slowly came into focus. I spent five years researching it, then another five writing it. I started with the first and last sections then worked simultaneously backwards and forwards, like twin earwigs chewing through a brain, to finally converge at Chapter Nine. This, the”Oozolem Foozlem” section, was perhaps understandably the hardest part to write as it charts the extinction of a soul before the rebirth and reascent of the final sections. I finished it at the Hawthorden Foundation’s Scottish Castle on a month’s residential grant.
ROR: It’s a very funny novel, which I intuited it would be before reading. Was this in your mind before starting? I know many years ago we spoke about a shared love of Fitzgerald’s Pat Hobby stories, which are to this day still incredibly funny to me. How important is humour to you in literature? And in other art forms. I think the majority of books, film, and even music that I enjoy have a strong comedic element to them.
BB: You’ve got it! For me, humour drives all ships. Since the war, the great British comic tradition seems to have receded: the sound of laughter seldom echoes round the halls of culture—well, maybe the odd titter here and there. My wife Jane tells me that, back in the day, she was the only person laughing at performances of Beckett or Chekhov. I recall, more recently, our going to see Lynch’s “Blue Velvet” in the local Odeon where the entire audience were in stitches. “That Frank”, chuckled the fat man in the next seat, “He’s just like our kid!” We enjoyed the film so much that we saw it again in the local ‘art cinema’…This time you could have heard a pin drop—except for Jane and I, of course. As with all the greatest works—in any genre—you should end up laughing and crying at the same time. “The Joyous Wisdom”—as Nietzsche would put it. It is, of course, that comic vein—the jugular perhaps—that drew me to your own early and subsequent work.
ROR: Thank you, Bill. I’ve had a long and difficult relationship with humour, for many reasons, which I’ve written about a little, but I’m sure will go deeper on in the future; but when people tell me about parts of HFWMY that made them laugh, it’s always a real buzz. I laughed out loud at various moments in TNSM in a way that reminded me of how I laughed reading The Corrections. Any thoughts on The Corrections / Franzen in general?
BB: I read 'The Corrections' when it came out but wasn't that impressed—nor by a couple of subsequent books. I'm ashamed to say that I can't remember just why! I read more US fiction than British. Funniest books--"A Fan's Notes" by Fred Exley, Flannery O'Connor's ,"Wise Blood". Also The Pat Hobby Stories—of course-- and anything by Ring Lardner, W S Burroughs or Nathanael West."
ROR: Salt editor/publisher Chris Hamilton-Emery called TNSM a ‘once in a lifetime masterpiece.’ That’s a great thing to hear from your editor. Can you tell me about the editing process for this book? I’d guess that you’ve edited it down quite a lot, especially given the novel’s long time span. Something I noticed right away was how quickly I settled into the novel, the attention to detail and immersion was undeniable, but done in such a clean way – which again I’d assume comes down to the edit. Personally I enjoy the editing process significantly more than writing the initial drafts. Is this the same for you?
BB: Well, it certainly was a relief when Chris Hamilton Emery appeared out of the blue! Every publisher we’d sent “TN-SM” to had declined it—very quickly, after reaching page 67, I reckon. Annette Green, my agent, never lost faith in the book and nor did I. Copies of the manuscript continued to circulate on a samizdat basis—people whose opinions I respected really liked it—and one of these found its way to Chris. He loved it and didn’t want me to change a word. The only minor revisions were mine prompted by recent new material in the field. In fact, no-one has ever edited any of my work—except for the short story collection when I agreed, against my better judgement, to change the title. It should have been called “The Tale Of The Golden Bath Taps” not “In This Block There Lives A Slag…” It was never just a slice of gritty northern realism…just an enchanted fairy tale.
ROR: That’s a real testament to Chris trusting your vision, and to how clean you must have got the manuscript. And, also, I personally know writers who’ve had titles changed with little or no discussion. It’s rough. How did it feel to be working with Salt, a large and ambitious independent press? And what are your thoughts about the publishing industry in general?
BB: I used to co-edit a small poetry press—Redbeck—with the late David Tipton, so I knew of Salt’s inception and history. I’ve always enjoyed the company of poets—as well as visual artists or musicians—to that of novelists. I’ve generally found them to be a rather cagey crew! It also helps that I like Chris’ own work: he’s got a new collection “Modern Fog” out with the excellent Arc Press. Above all, though, he operates with a near-fanatical intensity and focus—getting through contacts, proofs and book design in two shakes of a lion’s tail.
I’ve got a backlog of unpublished work—three novellas, a short story collection(almost) and am halfway through another long historical book set in the 50’s art world. I’d probably favour doing these in the independent sector—given the chance!—rather than returning to a ‘bigger’ publisher. Not out of principle, I hasten to add, but because I rarely encountered anyone who really knew what they were doing. I used to work at Penguin Books in the ‘70s—admittedly I was only driving my forklift round the warehouse—but things didn’t use to be that way!
ROR: From Swimmer, a second person novel, to ITBLAS, a short fiction collection, then Eternity is Temporary, and now TNSM, a longer, historical lit novel. Are you consciously or maybe unconsciously seeking out a stylistic challenge when you start a project? Or does the form take what the form takes?
BB: I sometimes wonder if I’m writing the same book from very different angles but then again perhaps not. As you say, the form does indeed take what the form takes. Blessed be the form!
ROR: For sure. I think to some extent at least it’s always going to be a case of writing the same book from different angles. I feel like the deeper you go, the more you uncover – so why wouldn’t you keep digging?
BB: You're absolutely right.
ROR: The Labour Party are returning to power in England at the same time as TNSM is published – did you manifest this? And is this you done with political / historical fiction? What’s next?
BB: Some people seem to think that I’ve knocked the book off as a Keir Starmer tie-in! Admittedly when I started writing it appeared that Uncle Jeremy was on the point of destroying civilization as we know it…I’m deep into this new book—“ROTHENSTEIN!”—the post-war British art scene is a fascinating period. Ian Sinclair’s new book also deals with the Francis Bacon ‘Set’.
ROR: Can you say a little more about Rothenstein?
BB: "Rothenstein!" will be another long book. Like "The Night-Soil Men" it's based on real people and concerns the mystery of "Evil" or "motiveless malignity" as Coleridge says of Iago...
ROR: Very nice. What books, film, TV, or music have you enjoyed in the last year or so?
BB: I admire Sinclair’s work—especially his poetry and earlier fiction—but this year it’s been Jon Fosse and Rudyard Kipling for me! Alison Moore’s “The Lighthouse”(Salt) and Vincent de Swarte’s “Pharricide” (Confingo) are two good novels with a similar theme.
Now, thanks to a recent ‘LRB’ piece by US writer Brandon Taylor, I’ve embarked on Zola’s “Rougon/Macquart” sequence. I’d only read a few of the better-known ones –many years ago when I felt that they were eclipsed by Balzac and Flaubert …but how wrong I was! I’m six books into the twenty and they’re wonderful. Hilariously funny, of course, but also unexpectedly poetic and sad, utterly belying Zola’s ‘forensic’ reputation. “His Excellency Eugene Rougon” has definite affinities with “TN-SM”: I seem to have been heavily influenced by these books without ever having read them!
ROR: I know what you mean. I’ve never read Beckett but have more than once heard the comparison. I can only think that there are personality archetypes who, if they become writers, are likely to inhabit a similar vibe as one another.
BB: Favourite recent film: “Past Lives”—if only because it ends with John Cale’s “You Know More Than I Know”. Tomorrow night we’re off to “Kinds of Kindness”—I loved “The Lobster” and the first half of “Poor Things”.
I like the latest Lana del Rey record—especially “Margaret”.
ROR: I enjoyed that album a lot. A&W is the song I’ve listened to the most on it. I’ve been listening to Lana Del Rey and Stevie Nicks’ duet Beautiful People Beautiful Problems as I work on editing my manuscript.
BB: Live music these days is mostly orchestral or opera but I’m looking forward to the great David Murray playing Ronnie Scotts in November in a one-off TEATIME gig. My God, what’s happened to Francis Bacon’s Soho?
As for TV, Jane and I are still missing “The Marvellous Mrs Maysel”. Ah, Tony Shalhoub—un veritable artiste!
ROR: Bill, I feel like I’m back in the strip-lit second floor room of the Samuel Alexander Building. Thank you so much.
You can buy The Night-Soil Men by Bill Broady - Here
A second season of Will Say More Later, After My Run will begin once I finish my novel. Thank you.
Bro remembered his password!
Thanks for this. Really enjoyed it. Not heard of Broady before but sounds like a dude. Any writer who leads with the humour in Beckett and recommends Exley’s A Fan Notes - inspiration for Ford’s The Sportswriter - is worth deeper exploration. Will seek out Swimmer.